It is inherent in Ukrainians not to trust the authorities because the state has been hostile to its citizens for centuries. Society is used to relying not on institutions, but on individual heroes. And that’s OK. But after February 24, 2022, Ukrainians realized that in conditions of full-scale aggression, only the army can oppose the army, it is impossible to save the victims solely by volunteer efforts, and to have water and electricity, you nedd infrastructure. For the first time, Ukrainians felt that their state could serve them. Meanwhile, the business helps both the government and the civil society. Have we moved to the stage where the state can rely on its citizens, and they can rely on it? Those who were volunteers and activists at different times, but were in power during the great war, are invited to this conversation. What is the difference between these roles, and what is the best interaction?